Matt Pierce of Techsmith, Sam Rogers of SnapSynapse, and John Kissinger of Xperience, joined us for Video Friday to talk Learning Media.
The full recording is here: https://www.crowdcast.io/e/121418
Transcript is below:
Matt Pierce 1:28
Alright, sweet. Well, thanks, everybody. We’re excited to be here. We’re sad. Sam’s not here to join us. So it’s video Friday. So we get a chance to talk about all things video, but we’re all going to extend that to audio and VoiceOver on John’s thing. But if you guys have questions, put them in the question stuff down below. Because really, that’s kind of the agenda. So if there’s no questions, we can just sit here and you know, like this.
No just kidding well we’ll talk about something.
John How you been? things going well?
John Kissinger 1:58
I love this
So they’re going well but I’ve been doing that you know some of you might know I haven’t been around much lately I’ve been kind of AWOL for about the past month buried, buried buried at work and then for the past three weeks fighting strep throat that just won’t leave me alone and you know when you use your voice for at least a good chunk of your income it’s not much fun to deal with and nursing my way back to health
Matt Pierce 2:25
yeah well I’m hoping throat coat tea you hope that you feel better here soon and can enjoy the end of the year. Good man. Everything is busy I haven’t been around nearly as much as I’ve wanted to be been working on text with Academy stuff just cranking stuff out actually finishing up a course for that we went to come in so next early next year probably you’ll you’ll see this course come out but it’s a we went to video marketing world which is a small video marketing conference and we talked to a variety of different people so let me just I’m going to name drop a little bit here because I think it’s pretty cool switching over here. So people like Amy land Dino she’s fantastic Bryan fans who a lot of us here in this chat know Christine Carlos from convincing convert. We had someone from with Stevie IQ nickname and who was a huge YouTuber. Robert Roberto Blake because a big YouTuber Sean canal. We had Tyler Lazard from vid yard a couple others. So, I mean, we just had this 13 people we sat down with, talked about video with them what they do their process, you know, asked him lots of great questions. And so that was super fun. Super excited for this course, to come out so everyone can see it. And we’re going to be doing something similar at to DC. So the conference, not the day thing.
John Kissinger 3:48
Yeah, not today, today. But in January. end of January.
Matt Pierce 3:52
Yeah. So, yeah. So if you guys are signed up for LDC, do that as I’ll be there, john, you’re going to be there?
John Kissinger 3:58
Yeah, man, we’re doing something together. Don’t you mean, here, we are, actually here, well, family in absentia, but
Matt Pierce 4:05
let’s just say that hopefully, the session goes
John Kissinger 4:10
as So the good news is, it’ll be live so we don’t have to worry about crowd cast getting in the way
Matt Pierce 4:15
correct the tech that piece of the technology will be taken care of. So no, but super excited that we’re going to come and talk to some people and do something similar. So, even if you can’t make it the LDC obviously, they’ll have their stuff but we’re going to do we’re going to create a course or two out of content we we gather at Sexsmith at that event so super excited and will be spent on and also sponsoring it so I’m excited about that too.
John Kissinger 4:39
Awesome. Awesome sounds like you’ve been busy man and you and I By the way, still have to regroup to talk about some other text myth Academy stuff the track over into the audio around
Matt Pierce 4:51
Absolutely. So I I tweeted out since we need topics to talk about one things I want to talk about is something like this. I mean, we can’t even you guys have questions. I know Craig had a question. I see. There’s another one in there.
John Kissinger 5:03
But everyone knows is doing laundry have to do with video production? That’s
Matt Pierce 5:07
right. What does laundry have to do with it? Any guesses to what this is? Obviously, it’s right. Jump into the chat. If you have a gas
John Kissinger 5:13
clothes, pin for
Matt Pierce 5:16
clothes pin, you know, gonna hang my laundry up here. That’s right. Quite work. But it this I think this is something that’s really important about it. Let’s I want I want to talk about less about the actual clothes pin and more about how everyday objects become very valuable and video like this, right? So
John Kissinger 5:37
holder, clam Mike.
Matt Pierce 5:40
So sure, it could be all those in the industry. If you were working on a film set. And someone said, grab me the C 47 this is what you need to go grab seriously a policy 47
Matt Pierce 5:52
has an actual name, it has a port and the reason has a partner because then you can track it and like oh, we need 100 c 40 sevens. However, I’m going to show what’s this move the camera that’s always fun, right? So I’ve got a light back there you can see actually a few are holding on a gel on the light behind me. And so see 40 sevens become basically all Multi Purpose tool for holding things. So, you know,
John Kissinger 6:19
hey, I’m saying the data.
Matt Pierce 6:24
But as you’re making videos, I think one of the things we often get caught up on is the most expensive gear or we need big high call high production stuff. But really, if you have something like this, you can, there’s a lot you can do with it.
Sam Rogers 6:38
Yay. It’s working. Okay,
John Kissinger 6:41
now are you on your iPad? Or did you find a different computer
Sam Rogers 6:45
did not find a different computer. I’m actually in a hospital right now. And so I don’t have access to all of my usual video gear. But thank you, everyone, especially Matt and john for jumping. getting things started anyway.
happy to tell you I have a Mac that’s acting like a paperweight right now and it’s been having it hasn’t thrown this spat before but it’s been having issues that made me buy a new so
sorry about the delay no
Matt Pierce 7:19
failure made it and we
John Kissinger 7:20
have a good question though. Are you okay? You’re in a hospital everything good
Sam Rogers 7:24
I’m in a hospital but just to be supportive of someone else who’s in care right now I did cut my finger the other night grading radishes it turns out that my my finger is not as hard as radishes are so so I do how
John Kissinger 7:40
did how did the great ABC freezing radishes
Sam Rogers 7:46
they were graded. Ouch. That’s the level so but I’m I’m coming in, as you were talking about see 40 sevens and don’t need to detract the the conversation. It’s a beard older. That’s what it is
Matt Pierce 7:59
decorated? Yeah. So my point was that in video production, a lot of times we we often overlook this symbol, and we think we have to do like high end really fancy stuff. And sometimes something very simple like a clothespin holder can be a very functional Multi Purpose tool. And don’t get hung up on just because it’s simple. Or seems you know, simplistic as optional. Yeah. Yeah. Like all our clothes, pin holder. Why would you ever buy those? Well, because they’re cheap. They work for a lot of purposes. And they’re very handy to have around. So zip ties to, that’s another great one to have on hand.
Sam Rogers 8:34
I was just going to offer that zip ties or how a lot of my office gets put together and and I’m production shoots and stuff. You’ll see people use them for real for, you know, it’s it’s probably not like official rigging technique. But if you’re doing the DIY stuff, it’s perfectly fine.
And and you will see them actually in professional applications, for sure. Yeah,
Matt Pierce 8:58
absolutely. So let’s see. What do we got for questions here. So we got two questions. We got a question of who’s wearing it better today. Is that Well, now, Sam’s here
John Kissinger 9:11
better today. The balding the glasses, the way
Matt Pierce 9:17
we are? Almost three for three beards. I mean,
John Kissinger 9:20
come on, man. Yeah. Oh, look at you get a little
Sam Rogers 9:24
like I shaved it the other day. So
John Kissinger 9:28
you time to grow it out.
Matt Pierce 9:31
So interesting. There’s a comment in the chat about the
That’s actually where the name came from. Because a lot of folks that came back from World War Two had been flying. See, 40 sevens are workers when they’re very versatile planes. And so they gave that’s how the number got assigned to clothespins actually, was because of the plane. So
John Kissinger 9:52
I’m not I’m imagining a map with like a red line journey as Indiana Jones flies.
That sounds like the right place.
Matt Pierce 10:03
Absolutely. No, we gotta jump out of it. So
we have inflatable raft?
Sam Rogers 10:12
So we have another face appearing that is it as bearded and glass with a shiny don’t
Sam Rogers 10:22
Yeah, we know. We can say we’re not offering diversity.
Matt Pierce 10:27
We are not the poster children for this today.
Sorry, folks. So I know. So let’s talk a little bit more about video stuff. Sam, john. And I caught up a little bit our I guess our either of you working on projects, john, I know you do less video stuff. But any big projects, you guys are working on that you’re excited about that, like you’re doing something cool with video?
John Kissinger 10:50
Well, in an indirect way. Yeah. So one of the projects I’ve been working on for the past nine months, and I’ve mentioned it probably a few times on to DC as a series of driving simulations for a big automotive client. They’re essentially learning video games. It’s not just game fit learning. They’re full fledged kind of video games, to teach sales consultants, how to interact with the various technologies, you kind of score points, every time you make correct menu selections, configure the technologies correctly, use them on time to sort of save your bacon. Now, that is in a program html5 web based game form. But how we’re using video is we are recording and capturing a lot of live play experiences of those kind of as walk through demonstrations when communicating with clients. So as we make changes to the programming and stuff, instead of talking about it in script form, instead of talking about it with still images, they get in a much better sense of where we’re going with it. As we evolve it record someone actually playing this scenario with, you know, voiceover narration, sound effects, everything, and then put that in front of them to review with their internal constituencies. And it’s done tremendous things to help boost kind of the internal PR around this upcoming product launch. It’ll be going live in January, across, you know two dealerships all over the US. And so every time we’re we’re showing it in video form, people are able to review it for quality control purposes, we get the engineering team so they can see like, because they have to evaluate it in literally written script form, but doesn’t really come to life. So then you record the video of various evolutions of it. And then the engineers have something more tangible to react to. So video isn’t just an end product, it can be sort of a, to some extent, kind of not really rapid prototyping, but a prototyping product as well for communicating with internal clients. It’s worked wonderfully for us.
Sam Rogers 12:57
That’s fantastic, cool stuff. And one of the things that we have mentioned on here before I’ve run into the situation before of like, there’s the written way, there’s the written policy, there’s the way that people approve things in the way that people think things work. And then you shoot a video, and then it surfaces, things that are exceptions to the policy. Wait, you did it that way? Wait, that’s not how you use a C 47 I’m sorry. You know, like, whatever it is that that’s getting captured, like, as a way of, you know,
seeing what’s real, that’s another whole use case that we’ve talked about from time to time here.
That’s, that’s a very real world benefit a video sounds like some awesome stuff that you’re up to there. JOHN, I don’t have anything awesome to report Matt to question. You.
John Kissinger 13:46
Always awesome to report. Sam.
Sam Rogers 13:48
Well, in terms of video, there’s,
there’s a project that I have just been drafting a project plan for, for like the last two weeks, doing all my assessment or, you know, the gathering of data about what this is going to be, who it’s going to serve, how it’s going to work. And we were working off of a timeline, that’s February 28, you know, end of February to get stuff going, which for video stuff is which there will be some definitely appropriate and I just found out yesterday, no, it’s December 28. So I have nine working days to create an entire reboot of a sales training program. And I’ll be busy over Chris to get
John Kissinger 14:33
it on this year’s budget. So this
Matt Pierce 14:35
is why really Sam’s at the hospital. Because what he realized
Sam Rogers 14:43
was, so they’re probably will not be as much video going into this program as originally intended, we’re probably still going to do one, which is a scenario that that will shoot on green screen and it like it’s supposed to take place in a Home Depot or something. So we’ll just key that in, but have some some folks in front of a green screen just so we can do it real fast. And and don’t have to worry about what it would be like to do a shoot in a home depot kind of thing,
Matt Pierce 15:12
right? So actually leads me to a question for you guys. And I think you know, something I’ve asked myself a lot because I’m immersed in video, you know, working at a company that makes a product we talked about video all the time, and kind of the result of that as default answers, like make a video like when that’s not really the right answer. So I wonder what are your guys’s like checkboxes when you say, I’m not going to use video for this and sounds like Sam for you. One of them is just compressed timeline doesn’t make sense. Are there other things that kind of flag you to say, you know what, videos not the best thing to do here? Because again, I default to video, you know, a lot of times
Sam Rogers 15:49
yet, john, you want to
John Kissinger 15:50
take what I was just gonna say for me, it’s what’s the best solution to the problem at hand? And video is no is the answer right
now. My heart hurt. Sorry, man. I mean, it’s often the answer video is tremendously powerful. No one can deny that. But it takes time. You know, you can do kind of low rent, home grown YouTube style videos for quickie communications and getting stuff out. But if you want to present it with a certain level of professionalism to a particular audience that you know, is expecting a particular thing will respond more positively to a more polished mark, that takes time. And you don’t always have the time to do that. But, you know, as I think many people in the community, no, there’s no one size fits all approach to any learning solution, right, they all have a particular function in a certain time and in certain place. And that applies to video as well.
Sam Rogers 16:51
Yep, none other clear cut one where I talked myself out of doing video stuff is
if 100% that of my target audience cannot get the video that I’m making for bandwidth reasons, for network reasons. If I can’t get it out to everyone, I don’t make a video. And, and that’s not always such an easy mark to hit. And that’s, that’s my own personal thing. Like, if I’m going to exclude people, I need to be able to build resources that fit that excluded group. And that’s just so much more work. And it makes them feel less than and it’s like, you know, it makes posed to putting the pressure where it needs to be, which is on the network, which is on the the way that those people are getting their bandwidth. Like, that’s really what the problem is. So unless I can hit 100% of my target audience can receive a video without buffering that that’s not going to like choke up their bandwidth for the whole branch office or whatever it is, I will argue against making a video
John Kissinger 17:55
that’s brilliantly said, Sam, I, you know, I mentioned using video to commit Kate with clients earlier on these simulations we were designing but they’re huge files. There’s no getting around it. video makes big files. And not everyone wants to wait to download stuff forever. They want to be able to click and see it instantly. Now, it doesn’t always function that way. But how long does it take 30 minutes? 45 minutes? You know, I think being mindful other networks is hugely important. So thanks for pointing that out. Say
Sam Rogers 18:24
yeah, and it’s it’s not a popular thing to talk about. Because a lot of times people haven’t really defined their target audience so well, that they know how to give that answer. So again, that’s trying to put pressure where it really should be like, well, these people all have names, and they work for you. So you should theoretically be able to tell me all the names of all the people and I could just check. And it’s,
it’s really good to just spot check with people and to run a test and say, Okay, well, who’s the person in the most remote branch office, send them a test video, like, Did it work, because a lot of times people can’t tell you, you know, like, if you ask through the proper channels, do it or whatever they won’t know. And it makes them feel stupid not to know. So I like to approach them with information.
So they tried this with five people, you know, in these disparate places. And here were the results that we got, what do you think’s going on? Do you think that we could make this work for this program, because we’d really love to be able to do some engaging video and to do stuff that’s going to work better, but it won’t work. If it doesn’t work.
John Kissinger 19:32
Kim asked a great question in chat. What do you do if the client still insists? Even if bandwidth is an issue?
Sam Rogers 19:39
Well, it depends. It depends on how much I need the gig. First off, because I feel pretty strongly that unless there is
something that will work
to serve the audience that they want to serve, ultimately, is just going to make me look bad. If I say yes, because I don’t want to get that right. Poor that like, everything goes wrong with the video. And I can’t declare it a success, right? So if I can see up front that it’s not going to work, and it’s going to cause problems. I don’t want to take that gig. And I’m pretty upfront about that. And I, you know, personally as a consultant when I’m working with a client, but I have a good relationship. Usually I can, I can have that conversation in a way that’s not confrontational. But I also tell people to sometimes straight up when I’m taking work, I don’t want it
that, hey, I really don’t want to do this. And I don’t think it’s going to go well, and I can take your money and I can deliver this.
Is that really what you want me to do? And I’ve not had anybody say yes to that yet.
Matt Pierce 20:50
Well, that’s, that’s great to be able to put that up front and be able to stick to those those guns, there’s, there’s question about our comments, some comments about capturing Sam, and you, is that part of your consideration. So if some of your audience needs capturing, and he can’t deliver capturing, I’m assuming you wouldn’t then deliver the video,
Sam Rogers 21:07
if that’s part of the the target audience, I haven’t really run into that situation where that’s, that’s been a thing yet, because usually there’s there’s already other arrangements that are getting made for people who are needing support and other languages, you know, in terms of translating handouts, or, you know, the interface for the LM s, or how it is that things are getting to people, there’s usually more happening around all of that. So, specific video captioning stuff. I don’t know, I don’t know, if I would hold that line quite as as strong. I probably would. I mean, I’ve run into that situation where we’re making something for this audience. But now return to that audience. Here’s the training that we made for the US, but now we’re rolling out in Canada. Now. It needs to be in French, you know, as part of that expansion. That’s, that’s like another iteration of the project.
Matt Pierce 22:03
Yeah. Now, I want to go back to something john talked about, which I think is interesting, because I think my views have changed on this a little bit recently, is this idea you mentioned, john, YouTube quality content, right? This idea that’s kind of low fast,
John Kissinger 22:18
anything dirty, quick and
Matt Pierce 22:20
dirty, right? Horrible. Maybe, maybe. Which is interesting, because having just talked to a bunch of people who make they don’t necessarily make their living on YouTube, but they’ve got like, 200 plus thousand plus subscribers there, they’re considered successful.
And none of them I think I would look at their content and say that it’s it’s low bar quality, right? Like my impression of what I mean. And let’s be fair, YouTube is a billion, you know, huge search engine, lots of content and most of its crap like quality cat videos, dog videos, whatever. But what I’m seeing is this interesting rise in the bar, of course, quality from the people that we often call YouTubers, which I think is it’s kind of got that negative connotation whereas I think professional youtubers Sure, right, for some level of quality, they’re trying to maintain sort of followership, I guess when I say YouTube quality video
John Kissinger 23:17
to me, I’m just using it colloquially. almost synonymous with like, you know, iPhone video, not to say you can’t make great videos on an iPhone, but just like okay, I’m I’m doing it and maybe the cameras deterring and, you know, it’s like, I’m filming the family dog or something.
Matt Pierce 23:33
Yeah. So my kind of thought around this is, it’s, it’s an interesting that that’s kind of our bar, we say, that’s the low but where I’m seeing even, there’s lots more that’s getting better. Yeah. And so I wonder if that that speaks to our expectations at all, as learning development professionals. And Sam, I’m going to refer back to a conversation I had with Mark last off about jump cuts, like, should should learn needed development videos have jump cuts for those that don’t know to jump cut it is it’s like, if you see a picture of me, then it looks like there’s kind of like weird gender and I’m in a slightly different spot. But I’ve basically cutting out some chunks and it’s like, what is the acceptable level from kind of a base standpoint for people to make video for learning development, knowing that we’ve got this kind of low bar with some things of YouTube, it’s bar might be going up, there’s some stylistic choices like jump cuts that maybe professionally would say, Well, that doesn’t look like a film that doesn’t look like broadcast TV. So what, what, what is our level here? What do we think is appropriate?
Sam Rogers 24:39
Well, having worked at YouTube, and everything, I delved into this a little bit.
And ultimately, with, like, YouTube quality videos, lowering the bar, I think this makes it easier and better for all of us, because it makes it easier for us to step over that bar. If we’re comparing it to something that is of a lesser quality, it just makes it more accessible for all of us to try stuff. There’s a big difference between, you know, the quality of YouTube videos and the quality of YouTube channels. So it’s very easy for us to like, make a video that maybe you know, breaks out and, you know, if you’re in the right place at the right time, it can be a jittery video, but if it’s really engaging, like it’s okay that my my friend Brian cars video with the with the baby beatboxing with the baby like, that’s one of those moments where it’s very poor video production quality. But he has like
us on that thing now, but his channel does not have millions of subscribers, people aren’t returning with that expectation that they’re going to see something like that. So we’re kind of in that second camp of we don’t just want people to watch a video we want to people to come back and people to see videos consistently that are have a consistent ish kind of quality, like, we can change the quality and you’ll see wide variety for a lot of YouTube channels to sometimes you know, they’re trying stuff or they iterate and improve over time.
Sam Rogers 26:17
I think the fact that the bar is low is great. And if the expectations of the users are lower, that’s great, ultimately, for learning and development. The question that I ask is, do people learn less if I do it this way than that way people learn last? Because I do a jump cut? Probably not like yeah, I could make it look smoother. Is it going to cause people to stop watching the video? Is it going to cause them not to understand a point? Probably not. So yes, I do want to make it look good. Just because I want to take pride in my work. But you know, when the schedule gets crunched, or whatever or when it’s just not really needed? Like hey, I can deliver this faster people will still learn
then yeah okay so it’s a it’s a great area but that’s the that’s the kind of line that I dropped personally
Matt Pierce 27:09
yeah and I think Mayra make some great points about like, tone tone matters, right? Yeah, concept matters. And I think my experience has been that people are willing to overlook some of the quality issues if the other stuff is there. Like if I let’s take a very classic how, you know, like, I need to fix something in my house problem, right? I go to YouTube and I will put up with some really crappy video if it saw helps me solve my problem and fix toilet or the thing or whatever’s going on. Now, I don’t think we should necessarily just default to that because I think we should have pride in what we do and try to make things better but I think making sure that you understand what your audience really need seems really critical like is this going to really help them is this what they really need or want to get and then and then scale flied the fight the scale for what the quality looks like time budget all those questions. But
Sam Rogers 28:04
yeah, first, you have to be getting stuff out there. So once you’re getting stuff out there, then you can improve it. But if you’re letting quality get in the way of your getting stuff out there of getting the the help that you can give the support that you can give. If they’re not getting that because you think it needs to be a higher quality, then that’s worth looking at. Because ultimately, you’re all of us are here to help, right? We’re here to help people do their jobs better. And if we’re restraining or throttling the amount of content we can put out based on some quality considerations, which our audience may or may not have, like, you’re not really doing anybody a service. But once you’re getting stuff out there, absolutely caring enough to do it. Well, and as best as you can, like, Yeah, do that.
Matt Pierce 28:50
So I got a really great piece of advice from I mentioned early on that we are at the video marketing world. It’s a small conference. And we did these interviews. And one of the, the gentleman we spoke to his name was Jeremy vascular, actually the organizer of the conference, he works for a company called vid IQ. And he said, pick one get 1% and better each week. And you can say, instead of week, you can say yes, video, right? Like, just get 1% better. And, and, you know, 100 weeks or 100 videos, you’re going to be 100% better. So you just incrementally get improve. And I think that’s something we often think we have to make these large leaps and bounds and in our video creation and editing all the process stuff like No, just make if it’s a little bit better every time. Now, granted, I’m sure some people say, Well, my boss will never go for that. Because I can’t. I can’t. I gotta be good now. But I think the idea is still sound that you can you can move forward and progress
John Kissinger 29:40
now. Oh, the irony amongst the learning community. This expectation that will become masters after one try
Matt Pierce 29:47
your john, come on.
Yeah. So I think I think it’s interesting. You know, it just, it was, I thought it was such a good point. Because oftentimes, you know, I’m like, No, got our make huge leaps, you know, let’s just do a little bit at a time.
Sam Rogers 30:03
all of the, the video processes, I’ve got, like all the gear in my studio, it’s not because I sat down and said, Oh, well, I have a $5,000 I need to spend right now to make everything awesome. I was like, well, I really need one of those. And if I get that, then yeah, well, that needs to get upgraded to. And then this is the weakest link in the chain. And, like, you know, incrementally you you improve and sell off the old gear and use it to buy new gear. And
John Kissinger 30:34
I just already that’s called gas gear acquisition syndrome. It’s ramping down the audio side too.
And let me tell you, there’s a mic near that light behind me there. That’s my booth back there. And it’s dark, because it’s dark acoustic treatment in there. But I probably went through about six months before I landed on that one. Again, as I told you guys before, finding the right mic for your voice is critically important. But at first it was well, all the pros use this one. So I’m going to get that one. Yeah. Wow. And all of a sudden you can hear a mouse fired at 50 paces. So sensitive. It just doesn’t work. Right?
Sam Rogers 31:16
Yeah, you don’t necessarily need the high quality Would you talk about with video, like shooting in 4k? Yeah, you could. But do you really want to I don’t think you do
John Kissinger 31:28
people who can work with last and kind of make something of it and then grow into it. I think I have that like you mentioned earlier kind of having this and then needing this and then needing this I have that tendency myself because I like gear. I’m a gearhead. I just love playing with technology. Audio, more so than video in my case. But But that’s an expensive hobby, and it doesn’t always produce results. It’s not the thing that’s going to get you the gig. You know, it’s your skills that you bring to the table. Right,
Sam Rogers 31:58
right. And, and a apparently Alex is saying in the chat that he will be a video expert after this very to DC. So
Matt Pierce 32:07
Matt Pierce 32:12
so we were reminded that there are some questions in the chat. So let’s take a look at that. Look at the most voted first, which is Craig, he planted it. He voted
John Kissinger 32:21
voting for himself. Yeah.
Matt Pierce 32:24
Okay. It’s an interesting question. It’s not quite directly related to video, although I think it ties into it. He says, What does being a digital native mean to your experience in the L amp D world
John Kissinger 32:41
I’m not quite sure where he’s going with that. I wonder. And maybe Craig, you can certainly clarify in chat. But I’m wondering up if I’m wondering if it has something to do with the expectations that we were talking about earlier. You know, I do, I don’t consider myself a digital native. I’m reasonably digitally fluent. But I didn’t grow up with an iPhone in my hand. And, you know, I don’t know what qualifies one to be a digital native, but
our people’s expectations different do they expect in the case of video, like, do digital natives expect more video in terms of how they receive content or how they want to interact with learning versus someone maybe from my generation, who is perfectly content and instructor led workshops, if done well?
Matt Pierce 33:35
Well, yeah, and I see
many of you know, I have several children, and my oldest is 17, and he’s about to graduate high school this this upcoming year. And, you know, it’s interesting to see what he gravitates to, and it’s not always video, like, I would think, you know, like, it’s not just going to Khan Academy or on to YouTube to find answers. And sometimes I’m the one bringing that as a solution to him, because he’s got like, three AP classes. And he’s like, doing AP Physics, things like, I don’t understand this. And like, I don’t either, but let’s, let’s see, can I find some search terms here to find a video but it’s interesting, that’s not even though he’s a digital would be considered a digital native has grown up around technology with me, you know, being his dad up around with the idea. I mean, video projects, you know, it’s probably had contagious in the house since he was six, you know, and so, but, but he’s, he’s still not gravitating necessarily, to video as a primary solution for learning, which is interesting to me. Like, I think, you know, a lot of people think, Oh, well, it’s going to be all the solution. You know, he likes to read a good physical copy of the book. Maybe he’s weird for him. Right
John Kissinger 34:47
paper, I’ll tell you,
Matt Pierce 34:48
you also listen to a lot of audiobooks because that’s convenient in his hectic schedule, but
off one for audio.
Matt Pierce 34:56
Yeah, absolutely. But so I think it’s interesting to kind of from that, looking at my kids as a test model. And, you know, so I’ve got the, the almost 18 next week and then they got the seven year old, it’ll be interesting to do the comparison of like, because the seven year old is super comfortable device in hand anytime he can get it right, like, and so I think it’s some it’s less digital native less, you know, fluency. Just what are what are they exposed to? And what are their opportunities, and, you know, how that might shape them? I don’t know, I’m completely speculating here, but I know Oh, go ahead. JOHN. I was just gonna say there’s a distinction to be made between digital native and digital nursery to write
John Kissinger 35:41
your young, I’m really comfortable the device in the hand. I always lament going to restaurants where some kids being squarely in the parent shoves an iPad and the kids face and just says, Here, you know, itself for
hopefully, hopefully, that won’t have lasting consequences on society as
Matt Pierce 35:58
well. Absolutely. But, you know, as a parent, you do your best you can, I will say, I grew up in, you know, I
grew up in the late 70s and through the 80s, and, you know, but I was mentioned earlier in the chat that I always I can’t remember time, really, we didn’t have a computer in the home, you know, my mom, she was taking programming classes at the local community college, you know, trs 88, and, you know, like, all these little things. And so, does that make me digital native?
John Kissinger 36:29
I don’t know, I mean, the trash at we had those in my middle school computer lab.
Matt Pierce 36:34
Yeah, yeah, we were, you had to type in your own code, and, you know, stuff like that to make it work. I also, you know, when before the internet was really widespread, there was a service called prodigy.
I spent a lot of time on Bolton boards and prodigy, right. Like,
John Kissinger 36:51
I remember having a conversation with Gene Siskel on prodigy one time, and I told him I was going to be the next George Lucas. And we debated whether or not you’re original Star Wars was better, or Empire Strikes Back. No, no joke. Oh, wow. I don’t know how that how that happened. did
Sam Rogers 37:08
well, that that happens when there’s not too many people in that room is how it happens. Well, the digital native thing, I don’t really know how to answer that question. I mean, I have digits, and I’m from her. So here I am. But
Sam Rogers 37:26
I think once it truly becomes native, I like we don’t think of ourselves as telephone natives. But we all grew up with that we don’t think of ourselves as automobile natives. But probably we all have the experience of being in a car and having it not be a big deal. You know, now, internet and computers and connectivity, and all of that. I mean, it truly does become transparent at some point. And, and that’s, I think, a good thing. I mean, that’s, that’s us adapting. And I’ll also throw in for digital natives, I’m actually a resident, a resident of Estonia, and have a completely online identity with a little thing that plugs into my, my computer, the card fits right in and, and we can actually look at identity being something that is completely intellectual now, that’s, that’s a way of knowing who we are in the digital realm, that separate from our physical selves, and separate from physical boundaries, and can actually be like,
we can experience things in completely different ways. I mean, we’re seeing, you know, applications of VR, of course, with people who maybe can’t move or are paralyzed in, in the physical world, but can have
VR experiences that are more full bodied, and things like that, like we can, we can go all those directions, but it’s always going to be weird at first. And it’s always going to be
that that arc of how people adapt to it, how culture adapts to it. Things that work here in our chat room are different than things that worked in the Prodigy chat room are different. And then things that, you know, work when we’re chatting in person, it’s a different cultural context, and it evolves and then it becomes invisible.
That’s the question.
Matt Pierce 39:22
I wonder if a lot of this is really about, like, from because, whatever, let’s say there’s some next thing after digital native, like, I don’t know what the experience would be does, it doesn’t really matter. Because the thing is, like, yeah, will be foreign to us at first. But I think a lot of it speaks to how open are we, as learners to embrace whatever that is what we could take VR AR, right. Like, if I’m not open to that experience, I’m going to on this other side of it. And so I think a lot of what people need to realize is, I mean, digital natives, just, that’s all they know, they don’t know the difference, right? They don’t know what it’s like to have a dial rotary phone. And so that’s, that’s an artist brands in the world went back to Morse code, you know, that was a weird experience. And, but, but if you’re open to it, and adapt, it doesn’t, I don’t think it matters. If you’re truly A native or not, it’s, it’s gonna be a little different experience. But I think it really the idea is we’re going to learn and if we want, if we want it, we want that experience,
John Kissinger 40:18
you make an interesting point. And I’m gonna tangent a little bit here, you talked about being open to, to me, this is one of the totally unrelated to what you were just talking about. But it’s one of the wonderful benefits of video as a Learning Media is that video often makes it comfortable for us to sort of tip our toes into the water of subjects that often would otherwise feel uncomfortable, if presented to us live thrust into it. I just got tasked with writing some talking points for a company executive for a one day inclusive at diversity workshop. And they’re going to, they’ve chosen to focus very specifically on helping kind of promote the roles of women in the workplace, as opposed to the myriad other diversity topics. A lot of the guys that is going to be 400 people in this thing, don’t really know what the topic is, don’t really know what’s going on coming in. And they’re going to find out when they get there that, hey, it’s about it sort of about promoting opportunities for women in the workplace, how are the guys going to respond to that, right, hopefully, with open hearts and minds.
But if you just kind of go at it with, well, here’s this person’s story and this person’s story and this person story in kind of a live fashion, it’s possible those guys might feel a little bit corner a little bit ambush. But if you entree in with kind of sensitive video, where it’s not it’s real people, but they’re sort of separated by the screen, I can kind of ease my way into it a bit more, I think. And I found that true video in lots of different circumstances where the safety of being on the other side of the glass allows me to examine things a bit more objectively, until I’ve developed a certain comfort level with which I’m done, willing to engage with it more personally. indirectly. I don’t know, have you guys found similar sorts of things
Sam Rogers 42:21
as, as someone interacting with folks in the real world with things that are supposed to be on video? Yes, like the, the other side of that,
not really necessarily learning and development, but I, I was a Star Trek alien that a theme park for a couple years, and I would watch people’s thumbs would twitch like, go away, go away, go away. You’re too close. This isn’t supposed to happen now.
But. But yeah, being able to reach people through through video there. There are things that that’s really good at because it’s distant and we can we can shoot things and in kind of a different way. I mean, well, Star Trek being a great example like that was telling tales, especially the original series that really were very timely for where we were in history, then, I mean, talking about, you know, the role of women or gender diversity, or, you know, there they were pitching aliens, because this is in the future. It’s okay, it’s on a video, it’s not going to hurt you. Right. Yeah, but another tour or what we’re able to say more. So, yeah, I think there’s tremendous opportunity to use that, that gap that distance as a way of leading people into asking better questions. And, and being more present and making decisions differently.
Matt Pierce 43:38
But I think, you know, if you look at, you know, people, and I’m not one of them, but people like watching scary things, right? Like, because, you know, you’re safe, you, you, you want those visceral kind of experiences, and video can provide that at this really real level. And I think that’s, you know, part of it, I agree with what you’re saying, Sam, is that you can use it in a safe way where you can present things that are maybe complex or difficult or challenging.
Same way, you can also evoke emotion in a very, really real way, whether it’s happiness or sadness. I mean, how many people cry at, you know, telephone commercials or, you know, you know, whatever commercial it might be, because it’s so sad.
And I think it’s just interesting that as a medium, you can do that in a lot of places, but video, particularly because you’re playing off of so many different senses at one time.
John Kissinger 44:31
So that’s something I think when we were talking about what do we want to talk about today. One thing that just popped into my brain and I’m always another for us, what makes really good emotionally stirring emotionally engaging video so engaging, that it has the potential to change people’s hearts and minds and ultimately behaviors and that that’s where we kind of bring it back to the workplace. I’ll just segue or tee this up. I used to be a facilitator, Franklin Covey workshops, once upon a time and in a workshop they once had called what matters most they used to this really fantastic video, it was just stills, a montage of kind of aspirational images set to a really evocative piano kind of thing, and just send some simple sort of text on the screen, live, love, learn, leave a legacy, this kind of stuff. In some ways, it seems kind of hokey in the modern era. But in the experience of using that in a live instructor led workshop at just the right moment, people were pouring down tears reflecting on their own lives. But what is it about those videos that had that that effect that just pulled those tears right out of people’s eyes and made them begin to reflect on the trajectory their life was taking, and so forth? What, what are your experiences with that,
Sam Rogers 45:54
the on the l&d world, like as a producer of events of live stuff
as well as video stuff, or audio stuff, or whatever
the the approach that I’m taking more and more with that is, it’s about filtering, it’s about making sure the right people are in the room, and you are
crafting an entire experience to lead people to be in a certain state. And once they’re in that state, then you can do so much more. But it’s, it’s worked, you can’t get everybody there, it’s not possible to take an entire cross sampling of the workforce and make sure that they’re all ready to receive that message. But what you can do is filter to make sure that the people who are ready or that the people who are
who are going to be most affected by that message are the people that you’re targeting as a group, and you’re wanting to Team them up with each other in a way where they can be with each other. Because then that group context has,
there’s a theme, there’s a, there’s a thing that starts to emerge in the room. And it’s not something that you can slice and dice and define and, and get down to the individual level, like, there’s a collective consciousness that starts to happen. And that’s one of the challenges for E learning is, how do we do that in, in a situation where people are watching basically, by themselves most of the time and, and making sure that they are keeping engaged and how it is that we measure that and, you know, keep people within these bounds so that they’re ready to receive what it is that that’s the message. That’s the behavior. I don’t have, like a great answer for it. But I think it’s a fantastic question to ask. And the more we dive into things like about the profiles of learners, how it is that we’re designing for that, getting more data about learners and their experience crafting experiences? Based on that, I think we can get better answers to that question. But
John Kissinger 48:11
it is it is, and I think it’s one, maybe we can come back and unpack that a bit more on a future to DC. But I have a mind and have been for a very long time that we don’t play enough in the emotional space and the emotional space relative to learning. I think it you know, in the case of video, or just e learning or anything, we spend so much of our time peddling information, and we don’t really,
really get into that emotional space that motivates people to change behavior. And if you aren’t kind of inspired to change, you’re not gonna whether that’s retain some bit of knowledge that that’s important to your career, whether that’s improving your performance in the workplace, it’s all there, and that emotional space, and we just kind of started about the informational side. So how can we use media like video to more effectively get people feeling it, not just thinking it.
Matt Pierce 49:09
So one thing I think it’s interesting with, especially working on the marketing side of things, when when you make an ad for marketing, it’s, it’s really interesting, especially if we want to plan those emotions we’re not focusing on let’s get everybody let’s get john and Sam, him and Baba, Baba, Baba. But we’re not trying to get everybody, we might just say, you know what, we’re going to focus on people that are just like john, and they’ve had this experience. And this is how we think we can, you know, maybe tap into that emotion or that, that need that feeling that, you know, what, if you just have this thing, your life would be so much better. And we it’s very focused, and then if that, and there’s testing and iteration iteration to it’s working, and it but we’re not trying to say, let’s make one thing that covers on I think a lot of times, that happens in training, and we say, Oh, my gosh, we’ve got to train all these people for all these different person. So we made one thing that’s trying to be a catch all because we don’t have the time and the bandwidth and the funds to make it like five different things were marketing, we’re going to make five different little things, and GG, GG, and call and then test we’re gonna have like, but this one does audience, we’re gonna have three of those. And we’re going to, you know, especially on Facebook, you can put it out there and see digit number rack up and say, Okay, this is the best one that was most effective of the three, then then we might iterate on that later. So I think from an emotional standpoint, it’s, it’s a lot harder in a learning setting. Because even if we do understand our audience, which I think Sam, you’re exactly right, we need to go out and understand who those people are. You mentioned earlier, do you know their names? Like, who are those people you’re gonna be talking to? But but then not only that, but then we’re just so limited, because we’re like, oh, I’ve got 500 people. And there’s, let’s say, there’s five, target audience five for audiences in there. You don’t get to make five things typically, that would be no prohibitive, the clients not gonna want you to do it. Well, the irony is, though, of course, like, the better you make something that speaks so perfectly to john,
Sam Rogers 51:03
the more that people like, you know, Katie can pop up and say, they’re speaking to me yet. Like, like, when you get really specific it, it
there’s a there’s a reality there I was, you know, scrolling through the chat, seeing some of the contributions there, you know, about things that that make it easiest for us to drop in story characters, you know, how the relationship
like when you really get detailed about that there’s a,
a way that we can connect that it might not appeal to everyone, but it will really, really appeal to more than just the one target you’re setting. Yeah, actually, it’s, there’s going to be more
Matt Pierce 51:50
Yep, absolutely. So Craig reminds now we’re down to I think about four minutes. So let’s be run the last few questions.
Yes. Because what’s let’s do this the best weekend. So top one here, can you share how you set expectations with the business early in your process, I’m guessing will relate that to video process. Anyone want to jump in on this one?
Sam Rogers 52:14
Make a sample, I generally make a sample within 48 hours. And it’s crazy. And it’s embarrassing. And it works. I asked for what it is that they’re looking for, you know, we can talk about YouTube level. But what does that really mean? Show me Show me a sample of exactly what it is that you’re thinking of, for the tone for the theme of this, let me make something like that. And then we’ll go that’s,
Matt Pierce 52:41
that’s great. I think that’s great advice. And just having those conversations early. And often
John Kissinger 52:47
that fits on the audio side as well. If someone’s looking for a specific tonality and a read or something like that, go to my website, listen to my demos, pick one. If you want me to sound like this version of me, or that version of me. Or it if it’s not from a website, you got something else? Can you do this? Great. Give me something and it helps me more quickly get to what get you what you’re looking for.
Matt Pierce 53:09
Awesome. Next question. Okay. Say you get a video out there. Do you iterate on that same video? Or just take the best and apply to the next one? Yes, both
I think the video like we iterate we make videos all the time over because we release new product every year or so. But in between that you’re also then hopefully applying those lessons to the next thing
Sam Rogers 53:36
use case of the video. What’s the shelf life of the video that’s going to answer the question for you probably, if it’s something that’s going to be around for a long time, then absolutely. It’s and lots of people see it, it’s worth going back to redo it. But you’re not necessarily going to get like greater learning or retention, like improvements that you can see. And it might be easier to just iterate with new material and then circle back to that when it’s time to do the updates.
Matt Pierce 54:03
Okay. Next question. How do you do with others print thing not involved in video shoe hanging around to watch you shoot a video?
make him do something?
Sam Rogers 54:15
Could you just get that see 47 over there. And
John Kissinger 54:20
yeah, and plastic explosives.
Matt Pierce 54:23
See, 47 planted Let’s go. I know what a lot of signs that and send out emails to the air if we’re going to be in a space where like sending out messages and reminders like hey, we’re gonna be shooting here. It’s gonna be quiet, you know, or, you know, we’re trying to block minimize disruption. But then if they’re if they’re going to hang around a watch, we will try to find something for them to do, whether it’s holding a microphone or, you know, Hey, could you listen to the audio, make sure it’s coming through. Okay. You know, if they’re capable of doing that, which most the time they are. So that’s my solution.
John Kissinger 54:52
Craig says, send them for Snipes. When I was in Boy Scouts, we’d send you for, you know, 50 pound 50 yards of shoreline or the bacon stretch the Bubble Bubble counter or something?
Sam Rogers 55:05
fun stories around. I’m sure we could go on for a whole episode talking about dealing with people who are the stakeholders or the sponsors wanting to be on set and wanting to direct
you know, that’s it’s a it’s a touchy thing. There’s probably no like, always works. Answer. But yeah, welcoming people to help if there’s help to give and telling people to get lost is perfectly appropriate to like, in a nice way. But like, Hey, we really want to get this here. And you know, the person who’s on screen they don’t want a lot of people around watching. Would it be okay if like he checked back in and another time, you know, something like that. People get it?
Matt Pierce 55:46
Yep. Okay, I think we got time for this last one. Can you d why I create a high quality live learning broadcast training that is better than renting out a space at a green screen studio, especially if it has to be flexible setup and a multi purpose room that has the correct bandwidth Network Setup model. As a look back into
that question. Molly, I’m now you have to do your voiceover breathing. Exercise.
Matt Pierce 56:10
One seconds. Craig says I’m maybe
think your answer. And Texas
Matt Pierce 56:18
we just did a text with Academy event that was live and I it wasn’t green screen. So I can’t speak to that. But I feel like it turned out pretty good, pretty high quality terms of being a live event. We just and we, you know, we broadcast through kind of normal stuff. So can check that out as an example. But I think you could. It depends on how much you want to spend and what other stuff you have going for. You
Sam Rogers 56:40
totally agree. I actually just bid on a job like that two weeks ago, and I’m in conversation about a very similar thing to what you’re asking about Molly. So it is possible, but it depends. It depends on a lot of things.
Matt Pierce 56:56
Yep. So I think that’s it, guys. I think we did it. We filled in our
Sam Rogers 57:01
and we didn’t even talk too much about microphones, which is there’s been a lot of that in the slack group lately.
John Kissinger 57:07
I missed all that.
Sam Rogers 57:08
You haven’t missed it. You’ve commented on stuff to the role. You know,
the test that Mike Symons was doing q was in there talking about my soul mate. And
John Kissinger 57:16
I don’t know I’ve been kind of a wall lately, so maybe I better jump in there and see what’s been going on.
Sam Rogers 57:21
Yeah, we’ll get in there.
Thank you guys for for springing in and jumping in. I’ll let you realize I guess, man
Matt Pierce 57:30
Yeah, sure. So guys, if you are not signed up for to DC conference,
go, sign up. Come, come talk to us. So many fancy there. Yeah, it’s gonna be awesome. We want to meet you. We want to continue these conversations. And we thank everybody for joining us today. Because I haven’t been here a while Jonathan been here a while. It’s fantastic to be back and see everybody. So thank you for your great questions, comments, and I guess it was you and we should say something about the session that we’re doing to Did you say that at the top Oh, we’re doing a session
Sam Rogers 57:59
Yeah, cuz there’s like three of us were doing
Matt Pierce 58:02
a round robin session three I think what reach doing two presentations, comment then heckling each other? Yeah. So it was all about video. Audio Visual audio stuff.
Sam Rogers 58:15
Yes. Well, we need to work on that guys. Short five minute presentations. Alternating one after the other. And with plenty of time for Q amp A at the end.
Matt Pierce 58:25
And if you guys are there, I’ve got two video production people coming with me. We’re gonna be shooting some interviews why we’re at the event, maybe come check out how we set it up. So if you’re quiet and not interrupting onset
and you know what to do with the CJ, right, otherwise, you can say closed set. That’s right.
Matt Pierce 58:45
everybody. Everyone, take us out. I don’t know how we do that
John Kissinger 58:49
now. And thanks to Greg for making this all happen.
Sam Rogers 58:51
Yes, yeah. Thanks, Greg. Everybody,
I guess we just think
Sam Rogers 59:01